June-July 2024

The most influential media platform in the world today is the Tucker Carlson Network (TCN). Wondrously, it is not just one more globalist megaphone owned by the several investment firms who control the corporate world that serves the godless agenda of Antichrist. Rather, in the current infowars it is on the side of the angels: a loud, blunt, providential voice of honest enquiry and discourse, offering authentic journalism.

Typically, its fearless host broke yet another mainstream taboo topic with this recent interview: allowing a Lutheran pastor to educate a vast online audience on the terrible trials and tribulations of bearing witness to Christ under Zionist occupation. From our Catholic perspective, he also unwittingly decries the catastrophic consequences of Protestant sola scriptura; in this case the notion of a divinely-endorsed Jewish state. Zealously maintained by his Evangelical brethren in America, this false theology shores up the Zionist tyranny. Our transcript and bracketed clarifications. Original emphases.

Christianity in Israel

Introduction by Tucker Carlson:

A consistent but almost never noted theme of American foreign policy is that it is always the Christians who suffer. When there is a war abroad that the United States is funding, it is Christians who tend to die disproportionately. And this goes back a long way, sixty years, really, to Vietnam, where Catholics in that country were massacred. But it’s accelerating.

So, for example, during more than a decade the US government spent occupying Iraq, the Christians, in the ancient Christian community of Iraq, were completely devastated. Nine out of 10 of them are no longer there. They’re gone. That was an effect of our foreign policy, but it was never noted in the United States, and almost never, ever, even mentioned, by Christian clergy in this country. Many of them support that war, that occupation. Why is that? Maybe because it wasn’t [mentioned], virtually no one in any American church said anything when Christians were killed in Syria. Very often by Islamic extremists, paid for by the United States. But nobody said anything. And anyone who did was denounced as a kook or a bigot. Somehow, standing up for Christians was not allowed in the US media, we saw that first-hand.

And so, once again, it continued in Ukraine, where the US government just sent far more than a hundred billion dollars to the Ukrainian government. And what happened? What did that government do? Well, it banned an entire Christian denomination. The Zelensky government is busy throwing Orthodox priests and nuns in jail, and having the army raid churches. But again, not a word.

But what about Gaza? What about the entire region in the Middle East, where of course there is intense fighting going on. Many Christian churches in the United States, particularly evangelical churches support that. But, there is virtually never a word about the Christians who live there, the ancient Christian community in Gaza, the West Bank in Israel proper. So, because no one has said a word, there has been great suffering among the Christian population in that region. In October, a Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza strip was hit by an airstrike, we’re showing you video now. The church is in ruins. At least seventeen people were killed that day. And that was hardly the first time that fighting in that region killed Christians. You will remember the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, almost 20 years ago, where a clergyman was killed in the church with American weapons, and Christian clergy in our country said nothing.

You may be asking yourself: well wait a second, if Christian leaders won’t stand up for the lives of Christians, why have them in the first place? And that’s probably a good question.

So, you would think in Congress, where there are many self-professed Christians, somebody might be piping up on behalf of their brethren in the Holy Land. But no. Just the opposite, in fact. For example, at a Town Hall event last month, Michigan Congressman Tim Walberg, a former Evangelical pastor, said he would like to see the region treated like Hiroshima was treated. Watch this [Walberg fulminating:]

“We shouldn’t be spending a dime on humanitarian aid.
It should be like Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Get it over quick.
The same should be in Ukraine.
Defeat Putin quick.
Instead of 80% of our funding for Ukraine being used for humanitarian purposes, it should be 80%-100% to wipe out Russian forces, if that’s what we want to do.”

So, to be clear, as a theological matter, Christianity is not the religion of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It’s the religion among all world religions that uniquely abhors mass killing. In fact, it is the religion that abhors mass killing. There’s no excuse for that from a Christian perspective. And here we have a former pastor calling for it.

But again, how are the Christians doing in that region? In Gaza, the West Bank, and in Israel proper? We almost never hear from them. And so we thought it would be interesting, and maybe edifying to hear from one right now. Reverend Munther Isaac is the pastor at the Evangelical Lutheran Christian church in Bethlehem, and we’re honoured to have him join us.

* * * * *

TUCKER CARLSON: Father Isaac, thank you very much for coming on. Let me just ask you a broad question to start. How are Christians, in the Holy Land, in the three places I mentioned, West Bank, Israel proper and Gaza how are they doing, right now?

MUNTHER ISAAC: First, thank you for having me. These are very, very difficult times, and it’s been difficult for quite some time now. When I say difficult times I’m not just only referring to October 7th, and the fact that right now we are fragmented into, as you explained, three territories, the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel proper. We can add to that East Jerusalem, which is a category of its own. [This] Explains one element of our situation which is we are fragmented. So in my church I have family members with relatives in Gaza and they cannot even visit, before the war they could visit and be with them. And this fragmentation is, as I said, one element of the situation.

One of the biggest problems we are facing right now is the deterioration of our number. People keep leaving because of the political reality. Life under a very harsh Israeli military occupation is difficult to bear, and as a result, many young Palestinian Christians continue to leave, for example, Bethlehem, choosing to find a better and easier life elsewhere.

We are a small community but we are part of the Palestinian people, and as such anything that happens to Palestinians happens to us. And we are probably disproportionately affected by all of this because of our small numbers. As a religious community, anything that happens affects us severely. Case in point what’s happening in Rafah right now, where there are anything between eight to nine hundred Palestinian Christians, and any impact on that community, any death in that community, will have a long lasting effect.

TC: So, what sort of support have you had from the Christians in the US Congress? Just to frame this, and of course people know this already, but the US government is paying for a lot of these military operations, and this is a majority Christian country. So, have any members of Congress sent you aid of any kind, words of support, of fellow Christians?

MI: We’ve always had a problem with American foreign policy when it comes to Palestine, Israel and the Middle East in general. I’ve travelled to [Washington] DC in December to advocate for a ceasefire. I don’t think war solves anything. And no, I mean, on the [contrary], we continue to be horrified by what we hear from Congress. With of course some exceptions, there are some on the Democratic side, of course [Congresswoman] Rashida Tlaib has a Palestinian heritage. But when you look at the so-called religious right, we see no sympathy whatsoever. Sometimes we’re just pleased to be heard, and to have our perspective taken seriously. And, one of the things I’m often struck [by], when I speak to diplomats, politicians, Congress staff, or even pastors or influential pastors, is how little they know about the reality on the ground. And their knowledge of the situation here seems to be very very shallow. Yet they hold very strong opinions. And oftentimes these opinions are shared by political parties’ position[s], the United States position, and not really based on, you know, a learned position that’s based on facts, on being here, visiting, talking, investigating, and knowing the facts.

And, to me the problem with all of that is, it comes across with very strong opinions. And decisions that impact our lives. Many times I wish to tell not just the Congressmen but the pastors themselves who support them, do you know that your lobbying, your positions, even your sermons, have direct consequences on our lives. Tucker, in this war there were pastors who openly called, for example, to turn Gaza into a parking lot. Now, let’s remember, there are not just, you know, many many innocent people, the majority of people, civilians, innocent children, but also there are our siblings in Christ. We have relatives and friends in Gaza. And here you have a pastor, with influence, calling for the total destruction of Gaza.... You heard in the beginning, the segment from Congressman Walberg, who is previously a pastor, went to [a] prestigious Evangelical institute, and it makes us wonder, you know, this obsession with war and violence, it is the antithesis of everything Jesus taught. And at the same time it makes us wonder, do you realise how damaging that is for us Christians living, not just in Palestine but in the Middle East. Damaging in the sense of, real impact on our lives, but also damaging in terms of our credibility, in front of our peers here in the Middle East.

So, we’ve always had a very serious problem when it comes to American foreign policy, and the religious right’s support of that foreign policy when it comes to Palestine and Israel.

TC: So, you have people in the United States, self-professed Christians who are, sending money, to oppress Christians, in the Middle East.

MI: That’s the sad irony in all of this. That, a lot of the money that comes from churches, given before the war, goes not just to the Israeli military, but to the building of settlements. Many of these settlements are built on land confiscated from Palestinians, and in many cases from Palestinian Christian families. So I hope you understand, again, how difficult this is for us, because this is political and financial support from our siblings in Christ. Rather than that support helping us, or even helping the humanitarian causes or peace causes, or, you know, initiatives to bring Palestinians and Israelis together, it’s supporting initiatives that are [making] our lives as a Christian community more and more difficult, and causing many of us to leave, because it seems that there is no future for us in this land. We’re very troubled, we’re very sad[dened] by all of this. And again, we continue to plead for the opportunity to be heard. We continue to plead with these Evangelical leaders, come and talk and see things with your own eyes. Take our perspective seriously.

Tucker, you mentioned something important about the war in Iraq, and that war literally emptied half of the Christian population there. You know that Christian leaders pleaded with the American administration not to [wage] that war, and not to engage in it, because we realised, they realised that it’s going to have some serious consequences, not just on the Christian presence but on the region as a whole. And never I think did they anticipate that it would have this severe impact on the Christian presence in the Middle East. So again I wish these leaders [to] realise, how damaging their position, their lobbying, their money is, even to our existence as Palestinian Christians, and as Middle Eastern Christians in general.

TC: It’s very obvious to me that many Evangelical leaders in the United States care much more about the highly secular government of Israel than they care about Christian communities in the Middle East. Do you have a guess as to why that would be?

MI: Some of it is theology. Some of it is the theology of Christian Zionism, that teaches, for example, that Christians must support Israel, because the Bible teaches that. And, oftentimes that is part of a larger theology of the End Times, in which they view the presence of Jews in the land as preparing for the Second Coming of Christ. They see it as a fulfillment of prophecy. Not realising, again, what that means on the ground. I always say, it’s as if the land was empty to them. They are excited about certain events, without understanding the consequences of these events on real lives. The irony is that many of these positions actually believe, and many Evangelical leaders believe that at the End Times,... Jews [will be] gathered in Palestine, two-thirds of them will be massacred. Only the other third [will] convert to Christianity. And somehow they consider that a Jewish-friendly theology.

Don’t get me wrong. I am for Christians and Jews, just like I’m for all religions coming together, understanding one another. But there’s something very problematic, when we make a certain religious group as an object in our theology and even eschatology and relate to them accordingly. Again, without really understanding on the ground, without understanding the complexity of Israel as a state, how secular it is, but even how much it is oppressing Palestinians, breaking the international law, committing sometimes, you know, human rights abuses documented against Palestinians including Palestinian Christians.

To me, Christians should be for peace. And, again, I wish you would be investing all this energy and money in initiatives that bring peace. Not continuing to support Israel unconditionally without holding them accountable, which is in my opinion what brought us to this mess right now, with a catastrophe of thousands of Palestinians killed, and October 7, and all of that. It’s all of these policies. And we continue to say that the [Evangelical] Church has been part of the problem. And, it’s one of my desires to see the Church [as] part of the solution when it comes to Palestine and Israel. Whether in this war or before, it was confirmed to me that the Church is part of the problem.

TC: It’d be pretty easy for Republicans in the US Congress to say we support the government of Israel, but if you touch a single Christian, harm a single church, prevent any Christian from practising his religion, you’re done, not a single dollar will come from the US Congress for you. That doesn’t seem hard.

I have to ask, specifically about the church in Gaza that was damaged by in an airstrike. Who did that? What do we know about that?

MI: So there were several incidents, when it comes to the Christian community in Gaza. And first let’s just explain that the majority of them live at the heart of Gaza, in Gaza City itself. And since the war broke, they all chose to hide and take refuge in the two main churches: the Orthodox and the Catholic. There’s also a small Baptist church, which was also damaged by the bombing, by the way, but nobody was hiding there. And, they chose to be there thinking that they don’t want to become refugees in the south with the unknown facing us. We don’t want to leave. Many of them are descendants of the 1948 crisis, the Nakbar [ethnic cleansing of Palestinians], so many of them are descendants of refugees. So many of them thought, we don’t want to go through the same again. One of them told me, ‘if I’m going to die, I’d rather die in the church.’

They thought the church was safe, but it was not. So, I think 10 days or so after the war [started], the Orthodox church was hit, was impacted by an Israeli missile, and 18 people were killed including nine children, Palestinian Christians. Nine Palestinian Christian children, 18 [people] altogether, as I said including relatives of church members, who were devastated by the impact. We were all devastated by that because, honestly, we thought the church was safe. And to be clear, it’s a building in the church compound that they were taking refuge in, it’s a small campus. And the building that was hit is directly close to a historical church building [that] dates back to the fourth and fifth century, and [the bomb] fell on the church itself. Things could have been worse….the building that was struck did not fall on the historic church.

So this was a major incident. And actually, Tucker, even the Christian media did not cover it. Many Christian media outlets did not give it [coverage]. And this shows that American Christian support to Christians is actually conditioned by where you stand on the political spectrum. So if Christians were hit or targetted or executed by someone who is not an ally, then you will see an outrage. But because Israel is an ally to America, no one cares about Christians being targetted.

In fact, [concerning] the Catholic church [of the Holy Family], two elderly women were killed by snipers, by Israeli snipers, and the Catholic Church talked about it. There were statements, official statements, from the Patriarch, saying that it was Israeli snipers who killed the two women in the vicinity of the church, in front of the church. They were leaving the church to go from one building to the other, they were killed, and when people tried to rescue them they were also shot at, and seven were wounded. [So] This [firing at the innocent] happened again. How can this be a mistake, Tucker, that’s our question, because they were in the middle of the church [compound].

And to add to all of this already tragic situation, those people in Gaza we talked to, almost all of them told us that their homes already have been destroyed, by the bombing, by the Israeli bombings. So now, if they survive this war ... and it’s a big if, we hope they do ... there’s nowhere left for them to go. Where will they end [up]. They’re begging us, can you get us out. Of course, we’re helpless here. What can we do other than pray and try to send some financial support to them so that they can buy food, and right now they’re telling us their biggest problem is starvation, they’re literally starving. And, many of them died for lack of medical care. So, in Gaza right now, if you get sick, chances are very high you can’t survive it because there is no medicine, no medical care. Especially among the elderly. And so, around four or five of our Palestinian Christian community, inside the church, died because of sickness, most likely because there is no medical attention or medicine whatsoever. You can’t go to a hospital. It’s literally hell on earth for them right now. Even for those hiding inside the two churches.

TC: I’m confused. Why wouldn’t Christians, in Gaza, cowering in their church and dying of curable illnesses, be allowed out to travel into Israel? Why wouldn’t they be allowed to leave? Why would they be held there? I mean they’re Christians, they’re not a threat to anyone.

MI: I know, but this is the nature of the siege. The siege has been there since 2007, it’s collective punishment against all Palestinians. I think this is one of the misconceptions, that Israel favours Christians [over] Muslims. No, Israel looks at us as Palestinians. And, I want to draw attention to, you know, even two years ago in the West Bank, when Palestinian Christian journalist, Shireen Abu Aqleh, who’s also an American citizen, was shot dead, by Israeli forces, and no one was held accountable.

So Palestinian Christians suffer from everything under this brutal occupation. Whether in Gaza, which is more difficult than here in the West Bank, but even here at the West Bank, we go through everything, from land confiscation to the restrictions. And so that Christian community in Gaza right now is stuck inside. They can’t leave. No one can leave Gaza right now unless, you know, you have some sort of arrangement with the Egyptian government in Rafah. But as I said, the majority of Christians had decided to stay in the city of Gaza.

So this goes back to the fragmentation I mentioned. Remember I said we have relatives of our church members in Gaza. Well they haven’t seen each other for a while now because you need a permit from the Israeli ministry to leave, and as a Christian, to travel from one place to the other … Tucker, we’re talking to you from Bethlehem, and Jerusalem is literally 15 minutes away from here. I can walk to Jerusalem, in 30 minutes. I can be at the Old City of Jerusalem in probably 40 minutes walk. I can get there. Even as a clergy I don’t have a permit. I need a permit that we get from the Israeli military, as Palestinians, to go from one place to the other. So for me as a clergy, from Bethlehem I cannot even go to Jerusalem. This is our reality today.

TC: As a minister. It’s, it’s just hard to believe we would send any money to a government that would do something like that, to Christians.

So let me just ask, having been to Bethlehem: I was surprised by how hard it was to get there, and surprised, honestly, by how shabby it was. And I was surprised because, I think, millions of Christian pilgrims from the West go there every year, because, of course, that's the birthplace of Christ, and the Church of the Nativity is there. So why isn’t Bethlehem the recipient of aid from Christian groups in the West? Or more aid, enough aid?

MI: We do receive some aid but it’s not enough. And by the way it’s nothing in comparison to the aid Israel receives. That’s the interesting part in all of this. And I would love to reach a point in which we don’t actually need any aid. If Bethlehem was open to the world, we can flourish as a community, not just from tourism and obviously the pilgrimages. The Palestinian people are very creative, very, you know, talented. We can do much if we have the opportunity to flourish as a community.

But you hit at something important because we as Palestinian Christians I think rely too much on tourism, and on welcoming pilgrimages. Before Covid, we had record numbers of pilgrims staying in Bethlehem. The economy was, especially in Bethlehem was really going up, but then Covid hit us. And now this war hit us, and I’m not sure, you know, it’s going to be very easy for us to survive.

And, when it comes to support, I do not just wish to reach the point where we don’t need support because Bethlehem is open to the world, I want to emphasise that the biggest support right now that we’re asking for is not financial but political advocacy for peace, and for a solution, whether it be a two-state solution or any other solution. We will not survive as a Christian community, if the situation of Palestinians in general is not solved. And since the creation of Israel, we’ve been under the occupation, under different phases of that occupation, and the current status quo as this Gaza war has proven, is not sustainable at all.

We’ve warned about this, by the way. I meet with Church leaders all the time, and I’ve always said the current status quo, that Israel has created, a status quo by the way that many human rights’ organisations have described using the word “apartheid”, is not sustainable, it’s going to lead to violence, ultimately, it’s going to explode. I’ve never in my wildest dream thought it’s going to be as deadly and violent as we’re witnessing right now, and my fear is if we don’t do anything about the West Bank, my biggest nightmare is that something similar will happen in the West Bank.

So what we’re calling for is reasonable, fair-minded, Christian leaders, who understand the reality on the ground, and are able to lobby for a just peace in this land where Palestinians and Israelis live together. Right now, as I said, I look at the [Evangelical] Church and see it as only part of the problem, advocating for one side on account of the other. Of course there are many who understand and who visit, but by and large, look at the bigger picture, in terms of political lobbying, in terms of financial support, I don’t think it’s helping us as Palestinian Christians.

And this by the way doesn’t, um, it’s not about one political party or the other. I remember even during the Trump administration, we pleaded as a Christian community, we pleaded that moving the [American] embassy [from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem] doesn’t help. We pleaded that a peace treaty with other Arab countries, as much as I want to see peace, if you don’t start with the Palestinians it’s not going to help. But again it seems our perspective is never taken seriously. And look now, we’re paying the results of years and years and years of American foreign policy to support Israel without really putting pressure to end occupation and establish the official position of America, a two-state solution.

So, this is the biggest thing we’re asking for. If you want us to stay here, if you want to see the Palestinian Christian community remain in the land, continue the Christian witness in the place where it all started, this is the land of Jesus, this is where Jesus walked, this is where Jesus was born, I would hate for the Holy Land to become a museum only. The only way to rescue the Christian presence here, is to end occupation, and bring a peaceful solution to the situation. This is what we’re asking for.

TC: Israel is very often described in American media as the only democracy in the region. Democracy of course suggests religious freedom, pluralism. How free are Christians to practice Christianity in Israel?

MI: We cannot deny that there are many freedoms in the state of Israel. But it’s not as free as people think. And let me give you an example, and I know that this might come across as shocking to many. Do you know that Evangelicals, as Churches, are not officially recognised in Israel.

TC: Not recognised by the government of Israel?

MI: By the government of Israel. Even evangelism is illegal in Israel. And, not only…

TC: Wait, may I ask you to stop there. What does that mean, evangelism is illegal?

MI: It’s against the law to evangelise in Israel. And to proselytise, as they call it.

TC: Christian evangelising is illegal in Israel?

MI: If you are a Jewish person, and you convert to Christianity, you will go through many legal challenges, to recognise your marriage certificate, to recognise a lot of your rights. Again, Evangelical Christianity is not officially recognised as a denomination in the state of Israel. Many Israeli politicians try to pass laws that prevent Christians from sharing their faith. And so, there is always this struggle and this tension about how much can Christians express their faith. The biggest problem Christians are facing is in East Jerusalem, where they are constantly targetted by radical groups, radical Jewish groups, let’s be clear. Sometimes some churches, there was an attempt to burn them. Oftentimes, and you can look at it on social media, all over the place, Christian clergy being spat at by these groups. They write very offensive slogans on the walls. There’s strong incitements against Christians, especially in the Old City of Jerusalem.

TC: What kind of slogans? What kind of graffiti is written against Christians, in Jerusalem?

MI: ‘We don’t want Christians. Get out of here.’ Some of it is very very offensive, actually, that I can’t say. A lot of it is calling for Christians, whether Christians or Armenian Christians, a small Christian community, part of the Christian community in East Jerusalem, ‘we don’t want you here’, ‘you should leave.’ So there are all these incitements against Christians, especially in Jerusalem. And, one might say that, one would expect to see radical groups in every faith tradition, and I say of course, yes, that exists. The problem is when they go unchecked and they’re never held accountable. Even when there are arsons, I mean attacks on churches. Oftentimes the complaints of the heads of Churches in Jerusalem, the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Protestants, is that, it seems that those who do these attacks are never held accountable. In fact, I think it was around two years ago when the heads of Churches said in a statement, that they feel there is a systematic attempt to empty Jerusalem of Christians. I mean these are strong words. Look at that statement from the heads of Churches.

So, the impression that it’s flowery here for Christians, is definitely not true. But beyond that we have to look at the wider political spectrum, because at the end of the day Israel wants to be both democratic and Jewish. And many question whether that is possible. And that’s why, as I said, even Israeli human rights’ organisations have called out the policies and discrimination policies of Israel. The Nation-State Law, for example. This is a law that was passed by the Knesset [Israeli legislature]. It states that the right for self-determination in the state of Israel, is exclusive to the Jewish people only. So this is a law that was passed by the Knesset that makes Jews superior, in the state of Israel, because they are the only one, they have exclusively the right for self-determination.

So whether it’s on incitement against Christians in Jerusalem, whether it’s in the fact that not all Christian Churches are recognised, or whether it’s the structure of the state of Israel as a whole, many have pointed [out] that it’s not really as fully flowery as people think, where there is just full freedom, especially freedom of religion. And, even in this war we’ve seen academics targetted. We’ve seen social media being monitored by the Israeli government against [the] Israeli citizenship, what you can say and what you cannot say, and if you say, for example, what happened on October 7 you could be put in jail. I mean, I’m not saying I support what happened on October 7, I’m saying that even Israel now is targetting and monitoring the social media, and many Palestinian citizens of Israel, because many people forget that twenty per cent of the citizens of Israel are actually Palestinians. Twenty per cent, or so. So they’re afraid to even speak out, and say anything even that sounds, that has sympathy with Gaza, because they feel they will be targetted, or they might lose their jobs. Again I invite people to come and listen to stories, and understand what’s happening. Talk to Church leaders. Talk to Church leaders in Jerusalem about the challenges and difficulties they are facing right now, before the war or during the war, in Jerusalem.

TC: The Speaker of the House, in the United States, third in line to the President, third most powerful person in our political structure, is a self-described Evangelical Christian, and a supporter of the government in Israel. And I would be interested in asking him what he thinks of the fact that Israelis who convert to Christianity have fewer rights, I don’t know if he knows that. But he has said that he supports Israel for theological reasons, the ones that you describe: that Christians have a moral duty to support the government of Israel, because Scripture tells them so. Is there any place in the Old or New Testaments that suggests or commands Christians to support the modern government, the secular government of Israel? Where does that come from? I haven’t read that.

MI: The problem is when you equate the modern secular state of Israel with the Israel of the Bible. The Israel of the Bible was a faith community in a covenant relationship with God, that was given the Laws and asked to be a light to the nations. And through that nation we as Christians believe Jesus came as a Saviour to the world. The problem begins when you compare, or when you equate the modern secular state of Israel, a political entity birthed in the twentieth century, with the people of Israel in the Bible. And this takes the question, which is a theological question of the Chosen People, into something that I call the Chosen State. The Bible doesn’t talk about the Chosen State. And to me the biggest problem, again, is when we give special treatment to any people [or] group, give privileges to any people [or] group. Tucker, I’m a theologian, and the idea of choseness is never about entitlement. Choseness is about responsibility. It’s about our calling, to be a light, to be a blessing to others. We cannot change that into a theology of entitlement. And definitely, a state cannot take that and make it the blueprint for being entitled and asking for everyone to support them.

The problem is, it’s the Christians who are saying this, it’s the Christian pastors who are saying we are called to bless Israel, because when you mentioned Mike Johnson, he said, when he became House Speaker, that as Christians the Bible tells us we should support Israel. And I ask, what about the context. What if, hypothetically speaking, let’s not get into an argument, what if Israel is committing war crimes? Or what if Israel is breaking the international law? Does that mean as Christians we should support them regardless? And I fully understand, and I’m fully aware of the shameful history of Christianity in particular when it comes to anti-Semitism. But the solution to anti-Semitism cannot be a blank support for Zionism. Especially since that support for Zionism has come at the expense of Palestinians. I always say it seems to me that many Christians in the West are repenting over the sin of anti-Semitism, a sin that happened on their ground, they are repenting on our ground.

So, to answer your question, no I don’t think the Bible justifies or calls for an unconditional support for a political entity. I think the Bible calls us to be good neighbours to all people, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, I think the Bible calls us to love all people, and to show no favouritism, because God shows no favouritism, it’s a divider. And the way many of these Christians talk about Israel actually puts us immediately as Middle Eastern Christians, in the defence position. You know, I pastor the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. I have the word Evangelical as the title of my Church, and every time an Evangelical Church leader says something that implies unconditional support for Israel, people ask, ‘is this what you stand for?’ And we always say, no, they don’t represent us. And when this support translates into support for war, this is where I’m troubled the most. Not just because I’m a Palestinian by the way. As a Christian I’m troubled because it’s the credibility of the Christian witness that is at stake, when it seems that Christians, as in the example of [Congressman] Walberg, seems to call for the genocide of two million Palestinians in Gaza, throw a nuclear bomb and get rid of them. I mean is that really the way of Christ? Is this how we walk in Jesus’ footsteps, as Jesus’ followers?

So we’re pleading for a different, not just position but for a dialogue. We’re pleading, please reconsider. And I’m not exaggerating when we use strong words like, they need to repent of these ways.

TC: If you wake up in the morning and you decide that your Christian faith requires you to support a foreign government blowing up churches and killing Christians, I think you’ve lost the thread.
Just to end on this, if you had a message for Christian leaders in the United States whether in government or in Churches or just citizens who care about the religion and their fellow Christians, what would it be?

MI: It would be to remind them that when the state of Israel was created it was not created on an empty land. It was created on a land that had millions of indigenous Palestinians there, including Palestinian Christians. And that that state they support, that state they celebrated as a fulfillment of prophecy, and a sign of God’s [fidelity] to the Jewish people, for it to become a state, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, including Palestinian Christians, were forced to leave and have never returned. Churches were closed. A friend of mine did research and counted more than thirty churches that were closed when Israel was created because Palestinians were expelled from the land. Our numbers continue to be in decline. So we’re pleading, come and listen, come and talk to us. And my message to Christian leaders right now is: there is a very, very brutal war taking place in Gaza, a war that I’ve described using the world “genocide” because it’s a war that has used even starvation as a means, and fellow Christians are suffering because of that war.

It’s time that Christian leaders recognise that wars are not the way, whether in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Libya, when will we learn that war does not help. When will we take Jesus’ words seriously, about being peacemakers, about being merciful, there must be other ways. And so it would be an invitation to listen, to learn more, and to avoid very shallow and simplistic perspectives that are not based on Scripture itself but more based on political equations. And, I would plead, right now, and I will continue to plead that we need to stop this war in Gaza. It’s killing many many children, women, innocent lives, it has to stop, there must be other ways. And as a follower of Christ, we have to pursue the path of peace and justice, and we have to avoid simplistic polarisations, good and evil, come and listen, come and understand what’s happening. And I plead as a Christian pastor from Bethlehem, I plead that you come and listen.

TC: Father, thank you for your thoroughly decent, and sensible analysis, and I hope it’s heard by Christians throughout the West.

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